Greg Mobley and Jerry Streets discuss the prophetic message of the Hebrew Bible, Jesus, and the nature of the prophetic in our time in Deuteronomy 18:15-20. The text is appointed for theFourth Sunday after the Epiphany, in Year B of the Revised Common Lectionary.
The Deeper Reality Underneath (Fourth Sunday after the Epiphany)
Voiceover Voice:
Most prophets don’t want to do away with everything; they just want to do away with the thing that’s messing everybody up.
Helena Martin:
This is Chapter, Verse, and Season: a lectionary podcast from Yale Bible Study.
Join us each week as two Yale Divinity School professors look at an upcoming text from the Revised Common Lectionary.
This episode, we have Gregory Mobley, Visiting Professor of Interpretation of the Hebrew Bible in Congregational Settings, and Frederick “Jerry” Streets, Adjunct Associate Professor of Divinity and Social Work.
They’re discussing Deuteronomy 18:15-20, which is appointed for the Fourth Sunday after the Epiphany, in Year B.
The text is read for you by student Sophie Beal.
Sophie Beal:
[Deuteronomy 18:15-20]
“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you shall heed such a prophet. This is what you requested of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ Then the Lord replied to me, ‘They are right in what they have said. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet, who shall speak to them everything that I command. Anyone who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I myself will hold accountable. But any prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’
Greg Mobley:
Hey, Jerry, can I go on a rant about the lectionary?
Jerry Streets:
Why not? [laughs]
Greg Mobley:
Well, I don’t like the way it uses the Old Testament to merely predict or prefigure events in the New Testament and ignores the revelatory integrity of the Hebrew Bible on its own terms. So, this text from Deuteronomy18:15-20 cuts the reading before the actual punchline in Deuteronomy, which takes place in verse 21 and 22. So, the ending, you know, as we just heard it read, “any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name, a word that I’ve not commanded the prophet to speak, that prophet shall die.” So, so far this is about, oh, there’s a new prophet coming, a successor to Moses, and it’s going to be, ta da, Jesus.
And I gotta tell this joke. So, one time, they’re having a children’s sermon at the church, and the kids are so conditioned to coming down there. And so, the speaker wanted to tell a story about some animals. And he said to the kids, so what’s brown and furry, has a long tail and lives in the trees? And one of the kids says, “well, I know the answer’s supposed to be Jesus, but it sure sounds like a squirrel.” And, you know, it’s like that’s the way the Old Testament gets used, so the answer’s always Jesus. But, in the Hebrew, the punchline of this whole passage is coming in verses 21 and 22, “you may say to yourself, how can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?” So how do you know the difference between a true and a false prophet? And the answer is if a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, but the thing doesn’t take place or prove true, that is a word the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Don’t be frightened by it. Okay. That’s my rant.
Jerry Streets:
Well, it’s an understandable one, I think. So often, there is an unspoken and sometimes not so unspoken triumphalism in the way we interpret the prophetic message of the Hebrew Bible as you said, as it relates to Jesus. And it raises, for me, a number of questions such as, not only how do we know a prophet is a true one, does a prophet only come in one form? Can we say the ecological conditions that we’re facing, our environment, is it possible that the trees and the animals and the oceans are giving a prophetic word?
Greg Mobley:
Amen.
Jerry Streets:
And I know that for some people that might be a little bit of a stretch, but I think one reason why it’s hard for contemporary modern people to think about the image of a prophet is because I think what automatically comes to mind is someone who’s a doomsday person, and/or they’re crazy. [laughs] Ranting and raving on the street corner or something like that. But I think also what may be at a deeper level of our caution, hesitation, even bias or prejudice against prophets is the fact that it’s hard for us sometimes to face the truth. And it would be easier to ignore the truth and any form of truth telling that comes in our midst. So, the prophetic word can easily get dismissed. So as folks who are listening to us thinking about their sermons or other venues that they’ll be using this text, one might ask, what is the nature of the prophetic in our time? How does it reveal itself, manifest itself, and how do we respond to it?
Greg Mobley:
Yeah, and it also, this gives us an occasion to kind of revisit the very essence of biblical prophecy because most people think prophets can tell the future. Prophets gaze through crystal balls. Prophets can tell you who’s going to win the game on Sunday. As Abraham Joshua Heschel, the great Jewish theologian of the 20th century said, biblical prophecy is not about foresight, it’s about insight. It’s about seeing through the showy appearances on the surface and plumbing the deeper reality underneath. So prophets are one who penetrate with their vision. And, in this case, then the question is, you know, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You don’t, you know, anyone can speak in the name of the Lord. And in fact, the people who most often invoke the name of the Lord are the ones I trust the least, are those voices I trust the least. But it’s a long-term question. Sometimes you don’t know. And you have to live with that ambiguity. Is the prophet’s word cutting to the heart and core of reality?
Jerry Streets:
I think so. And some of our listeners may be familiar with the framework of Carl Jung, who often encouraged that we understand and get to know our shadow side. Our resistance to do that kind of work is what we then scapegoat the prophetic persons or events. I think about, oh, you know, this may seem controversial to some of our listeners, but when George Floyd said he can’t breathe and the whole nation and eventually the world saw the knee of the policeman on his neck, was that a prophetic moment where a truth was being spoken about a social, political, racial condition that revealed a shadow side to the best of one of our nation’s institutions, and that’s law enforcement? And are we willing to really look at that without casting aspersions at the whole but being able to identify the particular parts that need rectification? Most prophets don’t want to do away with everything, they just want to do away with the thing that’s messing everybody up. [laughs]
Greg Mobley:
Well, I’m dating myself, but when you said, is the word by a man being oppressed by a knee on his jugular in a street a prophet…[sings] “the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls”. [Jerry Streets laughs]
Well, here’s the thing I love best about what we’ve said today, the essence of this text is, in Deuteronomy, an assurance that even though Moses will leave the stage, God will always provide prophets and prophetic voices. And then when that gets interpreted in the New Testament, Jesus is that prophet. But, I love thinking, in our generation, the prophets also must include the birds of the air and the fish of the sea, and the polar ice caps, and the Amazon rainforest. Are we listening to them? They might be saying the same thing George Floyd said, right?
Jerry Streets:
Yeah, and while we locate and centralize in the life and person of Jesus the prophet, it’s worth thinking about how much do we see Jesus as everyone? Or the potential for everyone? If he is an exemplar, then exemplar for whom? [laughs] There’s a broader message of the life of Jesus than a singular linear kind of relationship that we all shift to Jesus and then whenever the new prophet comes with bells and whistles, we’ll shift to that person. But might we see the universal in the life of Jesus that’s a part of the nature of life’s ongoingness. That is, it’s a representation. Jesus is a representation of life attempting to continue.
Helena Martin:
Thanks for listening. For a transcript of today’s episode and lots more, check out YaleBibleStudy.org.
Chapter, Verse, and Season is a production of the Center for Continuing Education at Yale Divinity School. It’s produced by: Creator and Managing Editor, Joel Baden; Production Manager, Kelly Morrissey; Associate Producer, Aidan Stoddart; and I’m your Host and Executive Producer, Helena Martin. And our theme music is by Calvin Linderman.
We’ll be back with another conversation from Chapter, Verse, and Season.
Book of the Bible:
Deuteronomy
Guests
Text
New Revised Standard Version Bible
Copyright © 1989 National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Credits
Host and Executive Producer: Helena Martin
Production Manager: Kelly Morrissey
Creator and Managing Editor: Joel Baden
Assistant Producer: Aidan Stoddart
Music: Calvin Linderman
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Joel Baden and Tisa Wenger discuss leadership, inherited stories, and transfiguring moments in Exodus 24:12-18 and Matthew 17:1-9. The texts are appointed for Transfiguration Sunday, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Almeda Wright and Kate Ott discuss pedagogy, mixed metaphors, ageism, and spiritual growth in 1 Corinthians 3:1-9. The text is appointed for the Sixth Sunday after the Epiphany, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Volker Leppin and Vasileios Marinis discuss hypocrisy, reward systems, righteousness, and religious performance in Isaiah 58:1-9a (9b-12). The text is appointed for the Fifth Sunday after the Epiphany, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Justin Crisp and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss blessedness, poverty, consolation, and the dangers of transactional theology in Matthew 5:1-12. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday after the Epiphany in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joanne Jennings and Bill Goettler discuss living with both faith and fear in Psalm 27:1, 4-9. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday after the Epiphany, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss the story of John the Baptist, a wild and perhaps uncertain character, in John 1:29-42. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday after the Epiphany, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss Messianism, prophetic gentleness, and hermeneutical approaches in Isaiah 42:1-9. The text is appointed for the First Sunday after the Epiphany, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Vasileios Marinis and Volker Leppin discuss human nature, sovereignty over creation, and preacherly responsibility with reference to Psalm 8. The text is appointed for the First Sunday after Christmas, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Yejide Peters Pietersen and Bill Goettler discuss the spirit of children, the multiplicity of interpretation, and pastoral responsibility at Christmas, with reference to Luke 2:1-14 (15-20). The text is appointed for Christmas Eve in the Revised Common Lectionary.
Mark Heim and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss Christian and Muslim interpretations of the Nativty of Jesus, with special reference to Matthew 1:18-25. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday of Advent, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Judith Gundry and Adam Eitel discuss patience, endurance of suffering, and the challenges of family conflict in James 5:7-10. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday of Advent, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss the imagined future of the glorious kingdom in Isaiah 11:1-10 and Romans 15:4-13. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday of Advent, in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
AndrewMcGowan and Ned Parker discuss the holiness of divine absence and the anticipation of things to come in Matthew 24:36-44. The text is appointed for the First Sunday of Advent in Year A of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Tisa Wenger discuss colonial narratives, indigenous theology, and the downsides of going to a “Promised Land” in Deuteronomy 26:1-11. The text is appointed for Thanksgiving Day (USA), in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss Hebrew vocabulary, shepherd imagery, and the legacy of King David in Jeremiah 23:1-6. The text is appointed for the Feast of Christ the King (Proper 29), in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss eschatology, aspiration, and ancient Near Eastern curse formulations in Isaiah 65:17-25. The text is appointed for the Twenty-Third Sunday after Pentecost (Proper 28), in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
John Collins and Jennifer Herdt discuss poverty, apocalyptic imagery, and economic justice in reference to Daniel 7:1-3, 15-18 and Luke 6:20-31. The text is appointed for All Saints’ Day, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Harold Attridge and Greg Sterling discuss redemption, the proper use of wealth, and the strange company Jesus keeps in Luke 19:1-10. The text is appointed for the Twenty-First Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 26, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Awet Andemicael and Adam Eitel discuss shame, redemption, and rehabilitation in Joel 2:23-32. The text is appointed for the Twentieth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 25, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss punishment, free will, and the dangers of metaphor in Jeremiah 31:27-34. The text is appointed for the Nineteenth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 24, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Jacqueline Vayntrub and Christian Wiman discuss joy, salvation history, and chicken guts in Psalm 66:1-12. The text is appointed for the Eighteenth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 23, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss trauma, hope, and poetic Hebrew in Lamentations 1:1-6 and 3:19-26. The text is appointed for the Seventeenth Sunday after Pentecost (Proper 22), in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss faith, ritual performance, and divine blessing in Psalm 91:1-6, 14-16. The text is appointed for the Sixteenth Sunday after Pentecost (Proper 21), in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Justin Crisp and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss capitalism, shrewdness, and the logic of parables in Luke 16:1-13. The text is appointed for the Fifteenth Sunday after Pentecost (Proper 20), in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
John Collins and Jennifer Herdt discuss the undoing of creation, fidelity, and false prophets in Jeremiah 4:11-12, 22-28. The text is appointed for the Fourteenth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 19, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Eric Reymond discuss precarity, God as creator and destroyer, and the potter metaphor in Jeremiah 18:1-11. The text is appointed for the Thirteenth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 18, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss humility, reversing the status quo, speaking truth to power in Sirach 10:12-18. The text is appointed for the Twelfth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 17, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Christian Wiman and Jacqueline Vayntrub discuss justice, prayer and action, and getting God's attention in Isaiah 58:9b-14. The text is appointed for the Eleventh Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 16, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Erika Helgen and Chloë Starr discuss faith heroes through history, triumphant faith, and the role of sin in Hebrews 11:29-12:2. The text is appointed for the Tenth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 15, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Greg Sterling and Harry Attridge discuss women in early Christian communities, eschatology, and faith as a matter of the heart in Hebrews 11:1-3, 8-16. The text is appointed for the Ninth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 14, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Judith Gundry and Adam Eitel discuss possession, wealth, and covetousness in Luke 12:13-21. The text is appointed for the Eighth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 13, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Tisa Wenger and Joel Baden discuss bargaining, God and Abraham's new relationship, and the righteous of Sodom and Gamorrah in Genesis 18:20-32. The text is appointed for Track 2 on the Seventh Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 12, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Andrew McGowan and Ned Parker discuss Mary and Martha, extroversion, and authenticity in Luke 10:38-42. The text is appointed for the Sixth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 11, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Volker Leppin and Vasileios Marinis discuss poverty, God's expectations, and our responsibilities to one another in Psalm 82. The text is appointed for the Fifth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 10, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Eric Reymond discuss kings, skin diseases, and prophetic power in 2 Kings 5:1-14. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 9, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Erika Helgen and Chloë Starr discuss prophetic leadership, sudden loss, and mentorship in 2 Kings 2:1-2, 6-14. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 8, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Harold Attridge and John Hare discuss gender identity, ethnic dynamics, and changes of the heart in Galatians 3:23-29. The text is appointed for Proper 7, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss joy, multiculturalism, and feminine language in Proverbs 8:1-4, 22-31. The text is appointed for Trinity Sunday, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Volker Leppin and Vasileios Marinis discuss signs and wonders, Hebrew Bible connections, the promise of salvation, and more in Acts 2:1-21. The text is appointed for Pentecost, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Yejide Peters Pietersen and Bill Goettler discuss love-songs, community, and connection in reference to John 17:20-26. The text is appointed for the Feast of the Ascension, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Erika Helgen and Chloë Starr discuss social justice, human failure, and heavenly hope in Revelation 21:10, 22–22:5. The text is appointed for the Sixth Sunday of Easter, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Eric Reymond discuss poetic structure, creation language, and the mechanics of praise in Psalm 148. The text is appointed for the Fifth Sunday of Easter, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Andrew McGowan and Ned Parker discuss whiteness, danger, and comfort in Revelation 7:9-17. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday of Easter, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Harold Attridge and Gregory Sterling discuss Resurrection encounters and calls to action in Acts 9:1-20 and John 21:1-19. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday of Easter, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Mark Heim and Abdul-Rehman Malik discuss doubt, trauma, and the value of “Doubting Thomas” in John 20:19-31. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday of Easter, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Harry Attridge and John Hare discuss faith, uncertainty, and the power of emotion in John 20:1-18. The text is appointed for Easter Day, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Tisa Wenger discuss the construction of stories, Christian supersessionism, and the legacy of Christian storytelling in relation to Genesis 22:1-18. The text is appointed for the Easter Vigil, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Judy Gundry and Adam Eitel discuss the innocence of Jesus, divine kingship, and more in John 18:1-19:42. The text is appointed for Good Friday, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
John Collins and Jennifer Herdt discuss enslavement imagery, Passover liberation, and models of service in Exodus 12:1-14 and John 13:1-17. The texts are appointed for Maundy Thursday, in all three years of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Andrew McGowan and Ned Parker discuss community, sacrament, and suffering in Luke 22:14-23:56. The text is appointed for the Palm Sunday, the Liturgy of the Passion, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Tisa Wenger and Joel Baden discuss divine violence, colonialism, and the notion of “wilderness” in Isaiah 43:16-21. The text is appointed for the Fifth Sunday in Lent, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Yejide Peters Pietersen and Bill Goettler discuss reconciliation, spiritual role-models, and what it means to “become the righteousness of God” with reference to 2 Corinthians 5:16-21. The text is appointed for the 4th Sunday in Lent, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Judith Gundry and Adam Eitel discuss repentance, leniency, and divine warnings in Luke 13:1-9. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday in Lent, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Eric Reymond discuss inheritance, offspring, and the promises of God in Genesis 15:1-12, 17-18. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday in Lent, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Harold Attridge and John Hare discuss the possibility of being in relationship with God in Romans 10:8b-13. The text is appointed for the First Sunday in Lent, March 6, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss the healing and transforming power of God in Luke 9:28-43. The text is appointed for Transfiguration Sunday, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Sarah Drummond and Joel Baden discuss forgiveness and the sibling dynamics at work in Genesis 45:3-11,15. The text is appointed for the Seventh Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss Jesus’ blessings and warnings in Luke 6:17-26. The text is appointed for the Sixth Sunday after Epiphany, Sunday, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Jacqueline Vayntrub and Christian Wiman discuss the difference between verse and prose in Isaiah 6:1-13. The text is appointed for the Fifth Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Sarah Drummond and Joel Baden discuss reluctant prophets and God’s will in Jeremiah 1:4-10. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Erika Helgen and Chloe Starr discuss the church universal and love as the basis for the exercise of spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:12-31a. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss recognizing God in the midst of community and the diversity of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss the power of God in Psalm 29. The text is appointed for the First Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Awet Andemicael and Adam Eitel discuss the mystery, language and lyricism in John 1:1-18. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday after Christmas, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Gregory Sterling and Harold Attridge discuss the humanity of young Jesus and the role of Mary as mother in Luke 2:41-52. The text is appointed for the First Sunday after Christmas, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Sarah Drummond and Joel Baden discuss birth, kingship and signs of God’s redemption in Isaiah 9:2-7. The text is appointed for Christmas (Proper 1), December 24, Years A, B, and C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss the Magnificat and our understanding of Mary through the ages in relation to Luke 1:46b-55. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday of Advent (Advent 4), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Sarah Drummond discuss hope, apathy, and why the context of prophecy matters in Zephaniah 3:14-20. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday of Advent (Advent 3), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss disaster and hope, glory, and reversal in Baruch 5:1-9. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday of Advent (Advent 2), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Tisa Wenger discuss messianic prophecy, timelessness, and historic context in Jeremiah 33:14-16. The text is appointed for the First Sunday of Advent (Advent 1), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Chapter, Verse, and Season gives listeners the opportunity to overhear the kinds of conversations that take place in the halls of Yale Divinity School. Each week, professors from different theological disciplines chat about biblical texts from the Revised Common Lectionary. They bring their own interests to the table and hopefully spark new insights into the scripture appointed for each Sunday.