Voiceover Voice:
The idea of holy surprise comes into this, as you’re talking, for me: the surprise of God in our midst.

Helena Martin:
This is Chapter, Verse, and Season: a lectionary podcast from Yale Bible Study. Each week here, two of our faculty talk about a biblical text, and you listen in on the types of conversations we get to hear in the halls of Yale Divinity School. I’m your host, Helena Martin.

This episode, we have Yejide Peters Pietersen, Associate Dean and Director of Formation at Berkeley Divinity School at Yale, and Bill Goettler, Associate Dean for Ministerial and Social Leadership and Lecturer in Parish Leadership and Church Administration.

They’re discussing John 17:20-26, which is appointed for the Feast of the Ascension of the Lord in Year C. The text is read for you by student Aidan Stoddart.

Aidan Stoddart:
[John 17:20-26]

Jesus said, “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

“Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me. I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Yejide Peters Pietersen:
Okay, wow. That’s a lot of words. [Laughs] You have to love John for the sheer number of words you can pack into a passage. I’m reading this and I’m like, “I in them and you—what did you say?” I think at one point you were thinking about a Beatles song. Oh my goodness!
Bill Goettler:
It really is a poetry of a sort, isn’t it? It’s engaging, obviously, it’s the conclusion of this prayer, it’s the conclusion of this final discourse of Jesus. And he is so urgently praying for the Church that is to come, for those whom he will never know in this life. And they will never have the chance to experience him in this life in the same way.

And this is going to be a church that’s under siege, he knows. Or certainly the writer of John knows. Barbara Lundblad once wrote about this being Jesus praying like a mother who’s adopted these children. They belong to God, but God gave them to Jesus to care for, to nurture, to teach. And Jesus is going to go away, and here we hear him praying for these children with the love of a motherly heart. I find that kind of compelling.

Yejide Peters Pietersen:
I do, too. I think there’s a lyricism to it, and that love that can’t be described. In a way, there’s relationships that are hard to even talk about. And I think about what is it that we love about, let’s say, a love song? And some of it is that when you look at the lyrics, they’re sometimes quite simplistic, but something about the voice of the person, and the fact that they are attempting to try to share with you the thing that is so intensely between them and another person–it’s an intimate glimpse of something. There’s a song that came out a year or two ago: “Driver’s License.” And in the song, this young girl is just talking about her love. And it’s such a particular thing. She’s a suburban girl talking about being in love and driving past this person’s house. And here I grew up in the city, but I hear that song and it touches something in my heart because I know that she’s truly trying to communicate the depth of the thing. I feel the same way about John. John can get a bit clumsy, even this lyricism, but you genuinely feel that he’s bursting out of his skin, almost, to tell us about this, this love, and he doesn’t want to leave anything out. So it’s Jesus, but Jesus relayed through the intimate gaze and the overhearing of John, in some sense, and I feel that!

Bill Goettler:
The idea of this song too that that is to one person’s experience, but then is experienced by others who hear it in a slightly different light: Jesus praying for those who will hear of this voice through the voices of others! Without that immediate experience of Jesus, can we still be part of that holiness from a distance? Well, sure we can. You’re right. That’s the experience of faith.

Yejide Peters Pietersen:
Absolutely. And I think about the fact that there’s something about Jesus, that is both so particular and also absolutely accessible by every human being. And to me, this is one of the unique things about Christianity, is this level of particularity that is such a big part of the story, but then the fact that there’s this beyond-ness, that makes Jesus accessible to each of us, universally available. And also I take heart in this part about “that the love with which you have loved me may be in them and I in them.” And I have to admit that I am partial to John and I do read most of John over and against that first chapter, which I love as maybe my favorite part of Scripture. And I think about the beauty of that language and the reality that Christ within us and among us and between us and by us: it is both lyrical, but real, but real. Maybe he was afraid to put too much flesh on those bones, lest it take away from our ability to access it and be able to take it in for our own. Do you know what I mean?

Bill Goettler:
The idea of holy surprise comes into this as you’re talking, for me, the surprise of God in our midst. I think this text is talking less to the individual than to the community, and we experienced that presence of God in Christ through community. And in that there’s some element of the unexpected. There’s some element of holy surprise.

Yejide Peters Pietersen:
And, I think, holy heartbreak. You think about this prayer and where it occurs in the whole narrative, and this whole sense of hopefulness about what could be, but the reality, and yes, I do believe that there is a brokenness and humanity, and some people call it original sin, but all this whole fullness and loftiness and “I’m in them and they’re in me and we’re together” and then the level of betrayal is ridiculous. I mean, this is really the worst group of friends you could ever gather around you. You know? “Can I throw a rock? Someone can pay me. I’ll get a back a bag of rocks for you.” Just, wow.

And you look at that and you think to yourself, “And still, those things are together for a reason, because it doesn’t erase the hope. It doesn’t erase the unity. It doesn’t erase the goodness, that the reality of human brokenness can’t take away from the power of Christ’s prayer over us, in the midst of us plotting and planning our own little things that are going to undo certain things.

Bill Goettler:
Whatever comes, whatever challenges or terrors (or perhaps joys) arrive, we don’t face them alone. We are not challenged to face them alone. We are facing them as a community of believers. That’s the expectation and the prayer of Jesus, I think, and that love is the central theme in this, in this divine relationship.

Yejide Peters Pietersen:
And I love that part about “together and in relationship,” because I think one of the dangers of our time is a belief that everything is an individual endeavor–and the reality that God in Godself is in community! What would make us think that alone with my iPad or alone with my devices, I can create a community of myself and maybe a voice on the other end?

And so I just feel is an encouragement too, to be encouraged, for those of us who are engaging in the cultivation of community and relationship, that this is the heart of the thing, that we might be able to be a One. And also to be our diverse individual selves, but there’s something sacred in that togetherness, in that being-togetherness in Jesus, not just in our own little pods, but in some way, striving to experience this unity.

Bill Goettler:
Yeah, that’s been one of most profound challenges through this time of pandemic. How is it that we are part of community that’s valued, our prayers are not alone, that our faith is still lived amongst other people, even in our separateness? And I think that that’s going to be one we are working on for many years to come, out of the experience of the years that have passed.

Yejide Peters Pietersen:

I agree with you. And I think one of the things that gives me heart and hope is the number of people I’ve met in my pastoral ministry who were what people used to refer to as “sick and shut in.” And some of those people had the most profound faith and sense of connection with the community that could only have been a sign of the Spirit. Here you are, confined to your bedroom, and you’re praying the list of people in our parish directory, or you’re the one sending out birthday cards, or when I come upon you, you’re talking about your hourly chats with God and worry that that’s not enough prayer. Do you know what I mean?

Bill Goettler:
I in them and you and me that they may be completely one. Yeah.

Yejide Peters Pietersen:
So I wonder what we can take from that into our own… How do we cultivate a spirit that’s open to the reality that we don’t always get to shape the world around us, but we are promised that we will have connection, that we will have relationship, even if we don’t understand how that’s possible? And I’m grappling with that myself. Like I’m going to church on the internet. I haven’t received communion in my hand in a minute and that’s just not like me. How do I make sense of that? What do I owe the people in my life who are vulnerable? I think I owe them the responsibility to be as, as safe and mindful as I can. But also, my spirit is longing for those gatherings, is longing to connect in the body, you know, see people, pray with people, not just on the screen. [Laughs] Do you know what I mean?

Bill Goettler:
Yes. And here, John tells us, is Jesus praying for that very Church, under siege, that very faithful Church, facing threats that were never imagined, and that were lived. Yeah.

Yejide Peters Pietersen:
And the number of people who contributed to the scripture who themselves were living in exile or apart from the community–and yet these beautiful writings come to us from that space. Perhaps it’s an indication that we think we’re unique in particular, but are we just rediscovering something that’s been a part of Christian identity all along?

Helena Martin:
Thanks for listening to Chapter, Verse, and Season! Visit YaleBibleStudy.org to find more Bible study resources, read the transcript from this episode, and find all of our past episodes. And follow us on Twitter @BibleYale.

Chapter, Verse, and Season is produced by Joel Baden, Kelly Morrissey, and me, Helena Martin. Aidan Stoddart is our editorial and production assistant. Our theme music is by Calvin Linderman. Thanks, as always, to the Center for Continuing Education at Yale Divinity School. And thank you, Deans Pietersen and Goettler, for being here this week.

We’ll be back with another conversation from Chapter, Verse, and Season.