Volker Leppin and Vasileios Marinis discuss poverty, God's expectations, and our responsibilities to one another in Psalm 82. The text is appointed for the Fifth Sunday after Pentecost, Proper 10, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
To Help, Not to Judge (Fifth Sunday after Pentecost)
Voiceover Voice:
What we shouldn’t do is just sit back and make it someone else’s responsibility.
Helena Martin:
Welcome back to Chapter, Verse, and Season: a lectionary podcast from Yale Bible Study. Join us each week as two Yale Divinity School professors look at an upcoming text from the Revised Common Lectionary.
This episode, we have Volker Leppin, Horace Tracy Pitkin Professor of Historical Theology, and Vasileios Marinis, Associate Professor of Christian Art and Architecture.
They’re discussing Psalm 82, which is appointed for Proper 10 in Year C: the Fifth Sunday after Pentecost. Here’s the text.
[Psalm 82.]
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
“How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?
Give justice to the weak and the orphan; maintain the right of the lowly and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk around in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince.”
Rise up, O God, judge the earth; for all the nations belong to you!
Vasileios Marinis:
One of the things I love about the Book of Psalms is that the message of many of them can be applied, reinterpreted, appropriated to a variety of contexts. And Psalm 82 is a good example. It’s a great example of these kinds of situation. We see God being very displeased with the unjust government of the people. And he intends to punish those responsible with severe punishments.
Volker Leppin:
I would like to hear a lot about changing this situation. And what is described here is a cruel situation about all those who are weak. But do we still really expect from God severe punishment?
Vasileios Marinis:
In verse 6, it says—and this is the NRSV, and other translations are different. So I guess the important point here is: how do you translate the Hebrew? Is it “divine ministers,” “angels,” or “gods?”
But in the NRSV, it says, “I say, ‘You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince.’” At least for me, it’s difficult to understand what is the original context and meaning of this psalm? What is the divine council? Who are these gods or divine beings? And so on.
But I think it’s clear. The message, at least for me, is that a test for a good government is how it treats the orphans, and the weak, and the destitute. And obviously these gods or divine beings here have failed that test. And for that, they will be punished. So if we accept them as divine beings that are immortal, the punishment is death.
Volker Leppin:
As far as I have understood, it is not wrong to translate as “gods,” and we might have here some rest of the longer history of religion, which is presented in the Hebrew Bible.
But applying it to our situation, I see those “gods” being something, maybe we human beings make for us as god. Coming from the Lutheran tradition, in the Great Catechism, Martin Luther writes about the first commandment: “on what you hang your heart, that’s your God.” Which is really interesting to think about. We make this our god, and this psalm reminds us: whatever you are making your god, there’s another God above all of them.
Vasileios Marinis:
Yeah, that’s quite interesting. So, if I understand what you’re saying, the “gods” or “angelic beings” are actually human beings here. And we can extend the meaning of the psalms to apply to essentially everybody and how everybody treats the orphans, and the weak, and so on. Is that correct?
Volker Leppin:
I assume my idea is completely wrong in terms of exegesis. [Laughs.] But as someone hermeneutically dealing with those texts, I think we have to look: What does it mean for us? How can we deal with those concepts?
And so, on the one hand, it is the desires, I think, of human beings. So looking for money, which is then the background for treating orphans like they are treated.
We just look for our own interests. We don’t look for other interests. That’s making ourselves our god. And so at the end, I would say, yes, those gods are those human beings who want to be God, like we have heard or read in the story about the paradise when human beings wanted to be like God.
Vasileios Marinis:
Yeah, and that is a wonderful interpretation. It’s not something that I’ve thought about before. But I like how, instead of moving the responsibility to a government or an abstract organization, this interpretation makes ourselves responsible for taking care of the weak and the destitute and so on.
Volker Leppin:
I grew up in the socially caring states of Europe, where we usually said, “Alright, there are problems with orphans, with poor people. The state will do something for them.” Which, I see, is different in the United States. At least, it is not done in the same extent as we are used to in Europe.
So, I’m still thinking about: What does it mean? Does it mean there’s someone coming to me and begging somewhere, and I have to give money? Or is it I have to give my time, sitting beside this person and asking him/her/them, “What is behind your fate? What made you so poor as you are?” And maybe for some people, it is more difficult to donate time than to donate money.
Vasileios Marinis:
Yes, that’s an excellent point. And I’m afraid I don’t have a straightforward answer.
I get the sense sometimes that people here, and in other places, believe that being poor is a moral failure. And I’m not sure this is, of course, the case. And I think it’s quite a cruel way to live one’s life and see the world.
It’s something that I grapple with. But I think one should do whatever one thinks will benefit the greater good. It can be monetary donations, or it can be volunteering, it can be tutoring, it can be a variety of things. What we shouldn’t do, certainly—and the message is very clear here—is just to sit back and make it someone else’s responsibility.
Volker Leppin:
And maybe one of the things we can do is being sensitive about what you said, which I think is a very important point. Seeing that people say poverty is a question of own fault. And just saying loudly, “It is not. It is not a question of personal fault. It is a question mainly of fault of the others, who want to have more money than they should have, and so making other people poor.”
So even if not encountering those poor people, we can do something for them in speaking out.
Vasileios Marinis:
Definitely, yes. absolutely.
And I think one of the problems nowadays is that—especially for people who have a historical perspective and are students have a history and culture—it’s not always easy today to understand that fortunes can reverse very quickly. And somebody who has lived a privileged and comfortable life, protected by a variety of external circumstances, can be a moral judge.
But this is not usually how life works, and we need to take into consideration that people can find themselves in circumstances that are very different than ours. And to be receptive and kind and understanding, and certainly not be arrogant in the way we approach a lot of these problems.
Volker Leppin:
We saw multiple examples of what you say in the last years: people losing their job by COVID, people fleeing Ukraine by war. So that there are a lot of situations people don’t have in their hand. In these cases, it seems to be obvious. And one would say, “Yeah, it’s fate.”
But any single person, there is fate, and there is something that made them poor, that made them bearing this situation they have to bear. We are not asked, as you say, to judge them, but we are asked to help them.
Vasileios Marinis:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think this message is particularly important because in the Chalcedonian Orthodox churches, this psalm is read on Holy Saturday morning. And certainly people pay particular attention to the concluding verse: “Rise up, O God, judge the earth; for all the nations belong to you!” Which is a triumphal verse and very appropriate for the context. But I think we should also pay intense attention to what comes before it and what is the message here, especially the Luther reading of this psalm.
Volker Leppin:
That’s exciting, what you’re telling us about the liturgy. I never knew that. And I just try to connect both parts. Does rising mean giving justice to the poor, to the orphans? Then it is well connected, this triumphant sentence, with what the whole psalm has to say.
Vasileios Marinis:
I think, yes, it’s very clear. God here is on the side of justice and compassion, and God will take over and apply these things.
Helena Martin:
Thanks for listening. And thank you, Professors Leppin and Marinis, for talking us through Psalm 82.
Learn more about the show, and find other Bible study resources at YaleBibleStudy.org. Thank you so much to everyone who has already subscribed and rated the podcast. If you haven’t already done that, please take a second and do it now. It really helps new people find the show.
Chapter, Verse, and Season is a production of the Center for Continuing Education at Yale Divinity School. It’s produced by: Creator and Managing Editor, Joel Baden; Production Manager, Kelly Morrissey; Associate Producer, Aidan Stoddart; and I’m your Host and Executive Producer, Helena Martin. Our theme music is Calvin Linderman.
We’ll be back with another conversation from Chapter, Verse, and Season.
Book of the Bible:
Psalms
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New Revised Standard Version Bible
Copyright © 1989 National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
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Host and Executive Producer: Helena Martin
Production Manager: Kelly Morrissey
Creator and Managing Editor: Joel Baden
Assistant Producer: Aidan Stoddart
Music: Calvin Linderman
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Yejide Peters Pietersen and Bill Goettler discuss reconciliation, spiritual role-models, and what it means to “become the righteousness of God” with reference to 2 Corinthians 5:16-21. The text is appointed for the 4th Sunday in Lent, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Judith Gundry and Adam Eitel discuss repentance, leniency, and divine warnings in Luke 13:1-9. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday in Lent, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Eric Reymond discuss inheritance, offspring, and the promises of God in Genesis 15:1-12, 17-18. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday in Lent, in Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Harold Attridge and John Hare discuss the possibility of being in relationship with God in Romans 10:8b-13. The text is appointed for the First Sunday in Lent, March 6, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss the healing and transforming power of God in Luke 9:28-43. The text is appointed for Transfiguration Sunday, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Sarah Drummond and Joel Baden discuss forgiveness and the sibling dynamics at work in Genesis 45:3-11,15. The text is appointed for the Seventh Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss Jesus’ blessings and warnings in Luke 6:17-26. The text is appointed for the Sixth Sunday after Epiphany, Sunday, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Jacqueline Vayntrub and Christian Wiman discuss the difference between verse and prose in Isaiah 6:1-13. The text is appointed for the Fifth Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Sarah Drummond and Joel Baden discuss reluctant prophets and God’s will in Jeremiah 1:4-10. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Erika Helgen and Chloe Starr discuss the church universal and love as the basis for the exercise of spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:12-31a. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss recognizing God in the midst of community and the diversity of gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss the power of God in Psalm 29. The text is appointed for the First Sunday after Epiphany, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Awet Andemicael and Adam Eitel discuss the mystery, language and lyricism in John 1:1-18. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday after Christmas, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Gregory Sterling and Harold Attridge discuss the humanity of young Jesus and the role of Mary as mother in Luke 2:41-52. The text is appointed for the First Sunday after Christmas, Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Sarah Drummond and Joel Baden discuss birth, kingship and signs of God’s redemption in Isaiah 9:2-7. The text is appointed for Christmas (Proper 1), December 24, Years A, B, and C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Felicity Harley-McGowan and Bruce Gordon discuss the Magnificat and our understanding of Mary through the ages in relation to Luke 1:46b-55. The text is appointed for the Fourth Sunday of Advent (Advent 4), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Sarah Drummond discuss hope, apathy, and why the context of prophecy matters in Zephaniah 3:14-20. The text is appointed for the Third Sunday of Advent (Advent 3), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Peter Hawkins and Eric Reymond discuss disaster and hope, glory, and reversal in Baruch 5:1-9. The text is appointed for the Second Sunday of Advent (Advent 2), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Joel Baden and Tisa Wenger discuss messianic prophecy, timelessness, and historic context in Jeremiah 33:14-16. The text is appointed for the First Sunday of Advent (Advent 1), Year C of the Revised Common Lectionary.
Chapter, Verse, and Season gives listeners the opportunity to overhear the kinds of conversations that take place in the halls of Yale Divinity School. Each week, professors from different theological disciplines chat about biblical texts from the Revised Common Lectionary. They bring their own interests to the table and hopefully spark new insights into the scripture appointed for each Sunday.